Luan or no?

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hairymick
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Post by hairymick »

Good information Mouse.

The problem (as I understand it) here, is that our ply wholesalers are now being supplied with gaboon (Okuoume) ply that is rated as BS1088 but is not Lloyds stamped and in no way can meed the standards you describe. this is in part the reason many of the boatbuilder's supply places will no longer stock the stuff here.

They are now stocking ply they are calling as Pacific Maple with a BS1088 rating, that, I think would meet the above criterior but is significantly heavier. I have 8 sheets of it here but am hesitant to use it because of its weight. It is, however, some of the best finished and prettiest grain ply I have ever seen. The veneers seem to be of uniform thickness (all three) and there are no surface faults.

Here, BS1088 seems to be little more than a marketing ploy to sell pretty much, any ply that is rated as marine grade. Several of the Gaboon sheets I have, could in no way meet the requirements with grain splits on the outside veneers etc but they will still make fine boats. :D

I think the Luan is good enough for most purposes. One just needs to be careful in selecting ones sheets or as in my case, where I have to buy them sight unsen, buy more than one needs and be prepared to reject some of those and use them for other things. Temp frames, etc. still need to be cut from something. :D
Regards,
Mick

JEMWATERCRAFT Swampgirl; Wadefish;Touring Pirogue;South Wind; P5 ;
Laker X 2, Sasquatch 16.5 T-V 15 Okwata 15:
Cobia 15 (under construction)
Kayak Jack
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Post by Kayak Jack »

Here is info from the Engineered Wood Association:


Plywood for Boat Building
Below is a copy of Form Q220, an APA pamphlet about the use of plywood in the boat building industry. Some remarks are necessary:

* Resin in the document below means polyester. Epoxy would work better but it was not tested.
* These are US standards but the information about plywood suitability for boat building is important for all builders. I will post some UK and French norms later.
* Redrying means drying the plywood before use, very important.
* Precoat all plywood parts with resin before any fiberglassing.
* If you use epoxy ( you should), there is no need to buy pressure treated plywood.


Points of particular interest to the amateur boat builder are: Types of plywood, classifications. Recommended plywoods for boat building Fiberglassing plywood

APA
The Engineered Wood Association

PRESERVATIVE-TREATED PLYWOOD FOR BOAT MANUFACTURING APPLICATIONS.

The plywood industry consists of over a hundred mills in North America utilizing dozens of wood species for manufacturing. Since the major application for plywood has been for building construction, the standards and plywood specifications have been primarily geared to providing grades and layups that are optimized for construction applications.

However, structural plywood also has a proven track record in boat manufacturing. With the current grades, specifications and treatments available, it is the best structural material to meet many of the boat manufacturers needs. From the widespread use in PT boats during World War II to today�s modern composite hulls, plywood has been a preferred structural element due to its high strength-to-weight ratio, machinability and excellent fastener holding capabilities.

Given the unique requirements of the boating industry, APA has developed specific recommendations that best address the needs of the boat manufacturer combined vith readily available preservative treatments, plywood can provide long-term structural performance as boat components. This guide provides specification details for best performance and provides reference to a vast information base on plywood.


PLYWOOD STANDARDS AND SPECIFICATIONS
Voluntary Product Standard PS-1 for Plywood

Plywood grade and workmanship quality are defined in Voluntary Product Standard PS-1. The standard defines the following panel attributes that are important for the marine industry.

* Wood Species. Over 60 wood species may be used in the structural plywood industry. Coniferous species are the dominant and preferred species for boat manufacturing applications. The most popular of such species is Douglas-fir. Other species include western larch and western firs.
* Veneer Grades. Veneer grading is based on the size and frequency of natural growth characteristics such as knots, knot holes and sputs. The common veneer grades for plywood are A, B, C, C-plugged and D. The plywood panel itself is defined by the grade of the face and back veneers (e.g., A-B or C-D)
* Bond Requirements. virtually all structural plywood made today uses waterproof phenolic resins which maintain their bond during moisture exposure.

APA Industrial Specifiers Guide

Today, manufacturers of industrial grades of plywood have very tight controls over how plywood is made. Current technology allows for production of specialty plywood with fewer core voids and gaps, which results in "tighter" panel construction. Such technology improves upon the prescribed combinations in PS-1 by considering exactly what attributes are needed by the industrial customer.

In order to fine tune the plywood grading system to more precisely meet the needs of certain manufacturing industries, APA developed an Industrial Panel Selection Guide. The grading system considers the following panel attributes in a four-number ranking known as the Industrial Category index, or ICI number. The four-digit ICI number consists of the following:

* Face Veneer Quality Ranking. A numerical scale indicating the solidness and smoothness quality of the face veneer.
* Back Veneer Quality Ranking. Similar to the face veneer, the ranking addresses the back veneer quality required for the specific application.
* Inner ply veneer under the face. These veneers are often important for applications with heightened fastener holding demands, and where panels are going to be cut into smaller parts.
* Other inner plies. Similar to the veneer under the face, these are assessed for solidness.


A copy of APAs Industrial Panel Selection Guide can be ordered by calling or writing APA at the address listed on the last page.

APA RECOMMENDS THE FOLLOWING MINIMUM GRADE SPECIFICATIONS FOR MOST BOAT CONSTRUCTION APPLICATIONS:
APA C-C Plugged, PS-1, Group 1, EXTERIOR
or
T the panel should meet an ICI Number of 7-3-3-3. Common Thicknesses Plywood 1/4� to 1-1/8� thick is available, with the most common thicknesses being 15/32�, 19/32" and 23/32".


*The best grade will vary depending on the application. Some boat manufacturers use treated panels with an ICI number of 4-3-3-3 for applications such as seats.

PRESERVATIVE TREATMENTS FOR PLYWOOD

Plywood has a long history of good service in the boating industry. However as with all wood products, given extreme moisture conditions for a long period of time, plywood may be susceptible to some degree of fungal decay In many boat applications, the risk of elevated moisture conditions is mitigated by coatings, laminates, encasernent in fiberglass or other protective means that reduce the moisture pickup or provide sufficient drying rate in order to reduce the panel moisture content. For the ultimate assurance against the risk of decay, commercial preservative treatments are available. Since preservative treatments render the wood an unsuitable substrate for decay fungi, treated plywood can be considered at the top level of performance with respect to longevity.

Treatments and Standards

Treated wood products are readily available and are often used in construction where high decay hazards exist. Unfortunately, much of the treated plywood found in retail lumber yards may not have been redried to the degree required for boat construction. The following recommendations are geared specifically for treated plywood for boat construction. For best performance, care must be taken to specify and purchase treated plywood in accordance with these recommendations.

First, make sure the plywood comes from a mill that is a member of APA - The Engineered Wood Association. That is your assurance that the mill is subject to APA�s rigorous quality assurance program.

Treating is conducted as a secondary process following the commercial treating standards written by the American Wood Preservers Association (AWPA). The most common treatment and retention level for plywood used in boat construction is CCA (Chromated Copper Arsenate) at 0.40 pcf retention. Other treatments for boat use are ACA, ACZA and ACQ.

AWPA Standard C9, "Plywood - Preservative Treatment by Pressure Process," specifies that the preservative-treated panel be redried to a moisture content of 18% or less, unless waived by the specifier. For use in boat manufacturing, the redrying of the treated plywood is essential to good performance when laminating with fiberglass. Treated plywood purchased from lumber yards is often used in construction applications and is not necessarily re-dried after treatment. It is essential for boat manufacturers to specify redrying.

Treated plywood is trademarked by a grading agency that monitors treating quality. The trademark should specify the AWPA standard, treatment and treating retention. Many suppliers of treated plywood for the boat industry offer limited lifetime warranties. Check with your panel supplier for warranty information.

For BEST performance of plywood in boat manufacturing, APA recommends the use of treated plywood according to the following specification.

Treated in accordance to AWPA Standard C9 with < CCA, ACQ, ACZA or ACA> to 0.40 pcf retention. Kiln dry after treating (~AJ) to 18% or less.

LAMINATING FIBERGLASS TO PLYWOOD

Many uses of plywood in boats involve laminating fiberglass over a plywood boat component. APA recently contracted with a marine testing laboratory to study the strength of fiberglass bond using commercial resins applied to treated and untreated plywood. The objective of the study was to assess the effect of preservative treatments and panel moisture content on the strength of the laminate bond.

The study assessed the laminating strength on treated and untreated plywood. To study the effect of moisture content, half of the panels were humidified to simulate the upper range of moisture content of what may be expected from treated panels after redrying or from panels stored at a boat manufacturer's facility.

The treated plywood developed bond strengths similar to the untreated plywood.

As expected, the moisture content of the plywood influenced the strength of the fiberglass bond. However, even at the highest moisture condition, the ultimate test failure mode in the vast majority of the cases was wood failure within the plywood itself, rather than at the laminate bond interface. The influence of plywood moisture content reinforces the need to specify drying after treating when using treated plywood.


HANDLING AND STORING PLYWOOD

Like all materials used in manufacturing, plywood should be properly stored and handled to assure proper performance. Protect the edges and ends of panels during handling. Place panels to be moved by forklift on pallets or bunks when received to avoid damage by fork tines. Panels to be transported on open truck beds should be covered with tarpaulins. For open rail transport, use "lumber wrap" to avoid weather exposure. For best performance, store panels indoors away from open doors to minimize moisture differentials along edges and ends. Make sure the panels are not exposed to water, solvents or other foreign matter that may interfere with establishing the fiberglass bond. Covering and weighing down the top of the bundles assists in keeping the panels flat. Stack panels on 4x4 stringers or other blocking. To help assure continued panel flatness, use at least three full-width stringers or bunks to avoid bending of the unit. Covering and weighing down the top of the bundles assists in keeping the panels flat.

RELATED PUBLICATIONS

APA maintains a vast library of literature regarding plywood. A selection of titles follows:

* APA Technical Note: Fastener Loads for Plywood - Screws, Form E830
* APA Plywood Design Specification, Form Y510
* Consumer Information Sheet - Inorganic Arsenical Pressure-Treated Wood
* APA Product Guide Preservative-Treated Plywood, Form Q220
* EWS Technical Note; Controlling Decay in Wood Construction, Form R495
* Industrial Panel Selection Guide, Form T200

ABOUT APA

APA - The Engineered Wood Association is a nonprofit trade association whose members produce 70 percent of the structural wood panels made in North America.

APA has three main functions: 1) quality inspection and testing; 2) product and systems research; 3) promotion.

APA's Field Services Division is a national network of representatives with regional offices in major market centers across North America.

APA Field Representatives help users, specifiers and distributors market, design, and apply APA and APA EWS trademarked products for countless end uses.

Most importantly, APA Field Representatives are available to help you. If you have questions about structural wood panels or engineered wood products please call the APA representative in your area.

APA
The Engineered Wood Association
PO. Box 11700, Tacoma, WA 98411-0700
(253) 565-6600 Fax: (253) 565-7265
Internet Address: http://www.apawood.org

See our resin-fiberglass basic tutorial for more information about the use of materials.
Kayak Jack
Doing what you like is FREEDOM
Liking what you do is HAPPINESS
I spent most of my money on whiskey and women - and I'm afraid I just wasted the rest.
kengrome
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Post by kengrome »

I haven't heard of any counterfeit BS1088 being marketed.
It is being done even though you haven't seen any, believe me.
I blew 40 minutes at he "Pro Desk" of the local Home Depot, only to end up with what we used to call an Okinawan salute. Unknowing expression on vacant face, shrug of shoulders, palms outstretched upwards, and sucking air where a tooth should have been.
We call this the "deer in the headlights" stare here in the Philippines ... :)
Ken Grome
Bagacay Boatworks
www.bagacayboatworks.com
Kayak Jack
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Post by Kayak Jack »

My purpose in posting this overly long post was so that we, as consumers, can be better informed. If we know the right questions to ask, we can get better information with which to decide. I'm not advocating one plywood over another.

If you want a certain grade of plywood, you should be able to both ask for it, and identify it. If another grade is available at an attractive price, you can decide more confidently.
Kayak Jack
Doing what you like is FREEDOM
Liking what you do is HAPPINESS
I spent most of my money on whiskey and women - and I'm afraid I just wasted the rest.
hunter
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:50 am

Post by hunter »

When it comes to building a canoe this was a frustrating morning for me.
I went to 3 different places for some luann. The only 3 within a 45 minute drive to where I live.
Lowes had the 5.2mm 'exterior grade glue' stuff but as I have previously posted before it pretty much looks like crap and unless I intend to paint the exterior of the hull is unusable.

84 Lumber had some beautiful luann, but only on one side. That side seemed to be laminated with a mahogony colored wood and the other in fir or pine with large elongated footballs. Again I could put the good side to the inside and paint the exterior of the hull. BUT the guys there couldn't assure me that the glue used was exterior grade glue. And neither did the lumber's sticker either. I passed.

Next was Dyson's, a local place. This time I found fir luann, beautiful one sided stuff. But the other stuff went as far as to actually have puddy covering up errors int he sheets! I have to pass on this too.

So I decided to check out the cost of the 6mm BS1088 stuff and the nearest place to me couldn't even give me a shipping quote without first placing an order and damn if you can't even contact them! The prefer 'email'! Grrrrr Probably just as well since 3 sheets were going to cost me 208 bucks plus an unknown amount of shipping. Of course I could drive there and probably save me some money, but then again I won't know that for sure since I can't get a quote.

Anyone know of any sources of the good stuff that will give me a quote for shipping to the 20653 zip code??

H
jem
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Post by jem »

www.harborsales.net

They might deliver free to a commercial address in MD. They do it for NC and you're quite a bit closer to them.
-Matt. Designer.
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